ANN-E = European-sourced Ps. annulatus

[RonWill]

Hi all,
During the treatment of the Ep fasciolatus zimiensis, the ANNs which were in the same tank, showed the most beautiful colors in the time I maintained them.

These were the ANN-E (European-sourced annulatus) mentioned in this thread.

Acquired in late February this year, they were scrawny 2cm buggers but have grown quite nicely. Hope you enjoy the pics as much as I did shooting them.

Epiplatys (Pseudepiplatys) annulatus [clickable images]






Owing to wrong flash settings, some of the pics were slightly over-exposed. The last 2 images are unedited and those before were slightly darkened + a little contrast. No color editing was done.

These ANNs do exhibit more reds in their anal fins than the Asian-sourced ones and AFAIK, only the 'Monrovia' (southern Liberia) population has that much red and was distributed in Europe and USA.

However, the caudal bandings in mine looks like the 'Maboshi' population. For those who don't 'get the drift', give this page a read.

The 3rd DW-styled tank looks like the perfect home for them and needless to say, they are my next breeding candidates :wink:

[whuntley]

Yours look a lot more like the Monrovias we used to have in BAKA. The only difference was that ours had the red pectorals and ventrals shown on Tim's page at the top. We lost that strain, when Wayland Lee and Robert Nhan dropped out of the hobby.

Last year, we obtained about 12-15 of these from Europe for WCW XII. I hogged about 6 or 7 and Don Greig got several.

Don moved to Oregon and never really got his going, while mine were all killed in a fishroom calamity, while being tended by a friend.

I found some semi-neglected ones in LA and got them sent to me this spring. Unfortunately, they didn't have enough strength, left, so I lost them all. AFAIK, that was all we had, here. [BTW, they were in very hard water at over 700ppm tds when I got them. ]

Keep a close eye on them as they mature. If they do get the red paired fins, too, I want some in the worst way. I feel that the WCW XII style of ANN is much better than what we currently have in the hobby, here. Unfortunately, there have been several subsequent commercial imports from Monrovia of colorless ANN, so I started distinguishing the WCW XII fish as "Monrovia Red." Any remaining original "reds" were probably hybridized with the others, for I cannot find any with colored paired fins any more, and none with the gaudy red anal fin.

Keep us posted, please.

Wright

[Slaigar]

Wright,
I stumbled upon a picture of E. annulatus "Monrovia". Quite stunning and vibrant! It reminded me of a bumblebee.
http://dkg.killi.org/starthilfe/sten...20Monrovia.JPG

[RonWill]

Sorry, but I don't understand. How did Lee & Nhan, in leaving the hobby, contributed to the lost strain when the original '12-15' were from Europe. Wouldn't it be possible to acquire them from that source again?

Keep a close eye on them as they mature. If they do get the red paired fins, too, I want some in the worst way

From tip of mouth to end of the caudal extension, the ANNs measure about 3cm and reckon they won't grow much larger than that and honestly doubt if the red pectorals will ever show (flashed lighting should have picked that up).

Anyway, Au bought some ANN Monrovia eggs a while back and when he ended up with all males, I wrestled 2 from him. They are tankmates to the Europe-ANNs (yes, I can differentiate the two) but the Monrovias never had red pectorals. Could this pigmentation be influenced or enhanced by diet?

If the WCW XII ANNs were distributed amongst USA killiekeepers, there should be some survivors. A check with the sale/auction winners should point you in the right direction.

[whuntley]

Wright,
I stumbled upon a picture of E. annulatus "Monrovia". Quite stunning and vibrant! It reminded me of a bumblebee.
http://dkg.killi.org/starthilfe/sten...20Monrovia.JPG

Stunning, yes, but possibly a hybrid of more than one location. The old Monrovia had an almost solid lower red (and upper black) anal fin, solid red-orange pectoral fins, and red ventral fins. Basically all fins at or below midline were solid red, except the caudal, and it had nice red central band with blue bands and bright red bands outside that. See the pic Ron referenced. It had a bit of blue in the dorsal, but no red. [The tail isn't quite as I remember our BAKA strain, either.]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z201531E8

There is no doubt that the late Herr Stenglein's picture is a fine one. It's not easy to get such a good shot of top-dwellers, sometimes. They can be terribly hard to light, properly, if up near the water surface. That bumblebee look is typical of the ANN I used to have, several years ago. Mine came to me as "Monrovia" but were of a later import and looked more like Herr Stenglein's fish than the older Monrovia Reds. Mine had maybe even less red in the paired fins, I think. They did have the bright yellow and jet black bodies, tho.

You never forget it, once you see those big red pectorals waving at you!

I think the Germans and Dutch have better strains of ANN than we have in the US, by far. I really wanted to get a good one going, here, for the good of the hobby.

Likewise I sought hard for a non-hybrid, yellow Fp. arnoldi like the Sapele collection. We have not had those in the US for many years, AFAIK. This is a species that defeated even the great Col Scheel! I'd like to take a whack at them, anyway.

It seems to be like Gresham's Law with money, where bad money drives out good. Bad imports seem to have done in several nicer lines, here. I'm certainly peeved at the commercial sources in Nigeria! The only arnoldi in the US appear to be hybrids. The latest imports, TR-01, look like a thierryi hybrid to me, and they are going sterile at about F3 or F4. No ARN should have a muddy brown body and a symmetricall tail. Also ARN are supposed to have very low variability. [These don't, if you look at Tim Addis's site.]

Get a copy of Radda and Purzl's Colour Atlas.... The ANN I want are on p 19 and the ARN on p 59. Note the typical Paludopanchax lower sword in bright yellow. None of the Paludopanchx sub-genus should have a tail that is symmetrical, like the THI on p 131.

BTW, I'm currently keeping,as my substitute Paludopanchax, the FIL I got from Tyrone that he got from a shop in Singapore! These are a nice, colorful aquarium strain and I ended up with about a dozen or so pairs.They will go on sale shortly, I think. Aquabid or AKA F&E list? Whatcha think?

Wright

[whuntley]

Sorry, but I don't understand. How did Lee & Nhan, in leaving the hobby, contributed to the lost strain when the original '12-15' were from Europe. Wouldn't it be possible to acquire them from that source again?

Keep a close eye on them as they mature. If they do get the red paired fins, too, I want some in the worst way

From tip of mouth to end of the caudal extension, the ANNs measure about 3cm and reckon they won't grow much larger than that and honestly doubt if the red pectorals will ever show (flashed lighting should have picked that up).

Anyway, Au bought some ANN Monrovia eggs a while back and when he ended up with all males, I wrestled 2 from him. They are tankmates to the Europe-ANNs (yes, I can differentiate the two) but the Monrovias never had red pectorals. Could this pigmentation be influenced or enhanced by diet?

If the WCW XII ANNs were distributed amongst USA killiekeepers, there should be some survivors. A check with the sale/auction winners should point you in the right direction.

Lee and Nhan had left earlier and we were shocked to realize their strain left with them. That's why we had Wilfred and Andre seek out the fish for our WCW boxes in 2003.

I already listed where all the known ones from WCW XII went. They are gone, AFAIK. [I did have access to the sale lists.]

Boxes from Europe aren't that frequent, and BAKA wasn't running WCW XIII, so we had less impact on where money was spent. Yes, we can probably eventually get more from Europe, but I'm not rich enough to do it on my own.

Your Monrovia are probably about like the ones I used to have. It is most unfortunate that we list major shipping points in place of real locations. The red pects are unmistakable, and not influenced by diet. They are hereditary and attached to a location we cannot identify.

It also is unfortunate that the ethics of many exporters are so poor. I once had an exporter from your part of the world, ready to attach any location I wanted to any Betta I ordered from him. That kind of unscrupulous crap makes it really tough to keep straight what we are breeding.

Unfortunately, that revealed that we have importers willing to be co-conspirators, so it probably did little to help when I dropped the conversation like a rotten melon.

ttfn

Wright

[stormhawk]

Wright, we do have some people locally that have been out and about collecting wild bettas throughout the region. Most wild bettas in commercial shipments don't have location codes. In fact most suppliers do not list or attach the collection points to these fish.

I have asked someone regarding the collection point of my Sp. vaillanti and he declined. For what reasons I do not know but I believe he has his reasons to do so. All I know is that they're found somewhere near and in Danau Sentarum in Kalimantan.

As for the red-pectoral ANN, I've never seen this in my life. In fact, those regular ANN from an Asian source have always attracted me though I don't keep those anymore. FWIW, even those Asian-bred ANNs are quite popular locally. I've heard of people buying up the ANN pretty quick.

As for the ARN, I saw the pictures by a Swedish guy on Tim Addis's site. The TR-01 really looks odd. Its too variable to be a proper species on its own. The suppliers must have mixed up females during shipping.

As for the THI, I thought it was more related to the nothos? So how could it hybridise with the ARN? Tyrone's source is pretty murky. If he said he got it from an LFS in SG, I've not seen any for sale prior to the last shipment so I'm not sure which FIL he has. The FIL are beautiful killies nonetheless .As always, depending on your choice, the AKA FEL will reach only AKA members, but on AquaBid you'll be reaching alot more people. :wink:

[whuntley]

Wright, we do have some people locally that have been out and about collecting wild bettas throughout the region. Most wild bettas in commercial shipments don't have location codes. In fact most suppliers do not list or attach the collection points to these fish.

I have asked someone regarding the collection point of my Sp. vaillanti and he declined. For what reasons I do not know but I believe he has his reasons to do so. All I know is that they're found somewhere near and in Danau Sentarum in Kalimantan.

As often as not, it is simple desire to protect his collection site from poaching. That's quite legitimate. You need a code system like the killies developed, where the collections author may have the actual coordinates of a site, but it is not shared with the whole hobby.

As for the red-pectoral ANN, I've never seen this in my life. In fact, those regular ANN from an Asian source have always attracted me though I don't keep those anymore. FWIW, even those Asian-bred ANNs are quite popular locally. I've heard of people buying up the ANN pretty quick.

As for the ARN, I saw the pictures by a Swedish guy on Tim Addis's site. The TR-01 really looks odd. Its too variable to be a proper species on its own. The suppliers must have mixed up females during shipping.

As for the THI, I thought it was more related to the nothos? So how could it hybridise with the ARN?

See Scheel's ROTOW. THI should probably not have their own genus. All Paludopanchax have Notho-like characteristics, and THI are really similar. Scheel says early ARN-THI hybrids were produced but died early. That doesn't mean others can't make it for a couple or three generations.[/quote]

Tyrone's source is pretty murky. If he said he got it from an LFS in SG, I've not seen any for sale prior to the last shipment so I'm not sure which FIL he has. The FIL are beautiful killies nonetheless .As always, depending on your choice, the AKA FEL will reach only AKA members, but on AquaBid you'll be reaching alot more people. :wink:

That's what I was thinking. Everyone eventually gets the AKA list, but Barry does delay the public posting at www.aka.org long enough that members get first shot.

Tyrone said they were direct from Germany, but no location can be determined. They are quite colorful, but not the lovely lavendar we used to get from FIL Lagos CI 91 we had earlier. Since these have been around for a few generations and are still going strong, I have high hopes we have avoided the hybrid problems that wiped out many earlier strains.

Wright

[hwchoy]

Wright,
I stumbled upon a picture of E. annulatus "Monrovia". Quite stunning and vibrant! It reminded me of a bumblebee.
http://dkg.killi.org/starthilfe/sten...20Monrovia.JPG

Mark, I think the picture was over-adjusted. Live coloration probably not so intense.

[RonWill]

BTW, I'm currently keeping,as my substitute Paludopanchax, the FIL I got from Tyrone that he got from a shop in Singapore!

Wright, is this the Fundulopanchax filamentosus (FIL) you're talking about?

Is there any particular reason why you're still referring to them as Paludopanchax?

They are quite colorful, but not the lovely lavendar we used to get from FIL Lagos CI 91 we had earlier. Since these have been around for a few generations and are still going strong, I have high hopes we have avoided the hybrid problems that wiped out many earlier strains.

What hybrid-related problems did you encounted? I went through Tim's site but found no referrence to the CI 91.

BTW, I believe AB has a bigger access to interested hobbyists than the F&E list.

[stormhawk]

Ron, some researchers regard Paludopanchax as being a full genus. To you it may be Fundulopanchax but to others its a mix of the following genus:

Paludopanchax - Those with a narrow caudal peduncle like FIL, ARN, etc.
Paraphyosemion - Gardneri and the like.
Gularopanchax - Deltaensis and friends.
Mesoaphyosemion - Oeseri and related forms.
Fundulopanchax - SJO

Now have I confused you enough? Because I'm pretty confused myself.

[whuntley]

I only used the sub-genus name because I was only interested in keeping one of the really small Fp. Since I couldn't get ARN, I settled for FIL.

The CI-91 never got to Tim's site, BTW. It was rescued as a contaminant in a wholesaler's shipment in LA, by Richard Sexton. He and Oleg Kiselev bred a couple of generations and passed them around, just about as the sterility problems began to set in. I sent some to NZ, and they are so fanatic to get a new species that they tried hard, but ended up losing them. Mine and all others seemed to go sterile at about F4 or so. Only a few made it off the west coast of the US. They were distributed as FIL Lagos, usually without the CI-91. [We figured out the rough date and added that later as others from Lagos appeared.]

Your pic looks much like mine, but mine have very bright orange in all unpaired fins. They do have that irridescent blue body that looks more like a GAR, tho. To me, the best-looking FIL have a red overlay that turns that body color into purplish or lavender, which can be quite striking, much like an Epi. lamottei.

Wright

[Svein]

Hello all

A call from Norway, I am new at this Forum which I think is very good and active.

I work with the species Pseudepiplatys annulatus from a location "Kolente" I have a group and this is one of my favorite among 20 others species.
I will try to enclose a picture from one of my young male here.
Regards
Svein, Norway

[RonWill]

Well hello, my Norwegian friend and welcome to the forum.

I'm glad you manage to find your way to our little corner and happy to find another annulatus fan. Nice pic of the "Kolente" you've got there!

Svein, I received your message about the image and working on it now. Be back in a bit.

[Slaigar]

Welcome aboard Svein! That is a great picture. What kind of tank set up are in they in? I am wondering what the big green thing is in the background.

[RonWill]

Svein, the link to your gallery in the 'Public Upload Album' is here.

Here's the pic that didn't show but I hope that's not the last. There's a number of hobbyist here who loves ANN.

Ps. annulatus "Kolente", young male


Time to get busy with the camera! :wink:

[Svein]

Thank's a lot Ron, hopfully you can send me an pm, explaining what I do wrong, because I take a lot of photos from my fish, but I cannot ask for help every time I will have a picture here on the Forum
Regards
Svein

[RonWill]

Thank's a lot Ron, hopfully you can send me an pm, explaining what I do wrong, because I take a lot of photos from my fish, but I cannot ask for help every time I will have a picture here on the Forum
Regards
Svein

Svein (and others who're hotlinking pictures to the forum),

Some hosting services disallow or disable direct linking to images in their server, eg. Angelfire.com , but this is worth a try, ya?

In the link you've provided;
Right click on the image
Select 'Properties' in the pop-up box.
Next to the 'Address' (URL), in your case, you'll see http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL579...9/61611301.jpg

Highlight/copy this address and paste to the message box (where you type your post) and add the tags;
[img]*[/img] ... where '*' is your URL, ie.
[img] http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL579...9/61611301.jpg [/img]
(no spacing between the tags)

Seems to work at my end...


BTW, I cropped and resized your pic before uploading it the killies.com server so that the page download is much faster (not everyone here is on cable or broadband surfin' )

[zmzfam]

Svein,

very nice pic of the ANN that you have. Also a very big welcome to our little corner.

...and this is one of my favorite among 20 others species.

Wow, 20 species! So what are the species you're currently keeping, if you don't mind sharing.

[Michsoon]

Hi Ron,

Just letting you know that the ANNs I got from you are doing well and I have already scooped out about 20 frys from the tank. Using Liquidfry No.1 and green water to feed them. Some are already big enough to eat BBS. Will do a count again next week to check my actual count of frys when they are bigger, hopefully the bigger guys didn't snack on their siblings.

Regards,
Michael